Outlaws： Physiognomy
Stream Summary
In this episode of Outlaws, Devon Stack and Rebecca Hargraves take on physiognomy, the practice of judging a person's character from their face and outward appearance. They open with a "What did they do?" game, asking the audience to guess the crimes of four people from their mugshots. From there they trace the history of the idea: ancient Greek animal comparisons and Hippocratic facial diagnosis, Polemon's Roman handbook, Chinese face reading, della Porta's run-ins with the Church, Lavater's attempt to make it a science, phrenology, and then photography, Bertillon's mugshots, Galton's composite portraits, Darwin's work on emotional expression, Lombroso, Kretschmer, and Sheldon's body types. Next they cover modern studies that claim to predict sexual orientation, political orientation, personality, and criminality from faces, along with research on unrelated look-alikes who share genetic variants. They also argue about looksmaxxing and plastic surgery, discuss why society rejects snap judgments based on appearance, cite studies on how infants respond to attractive faces, and debate the "fat friend" phenomenon. The stream closes with the game answers, Super Chats, updates on Devon's late cat Churro and a stray "Storm Cat," beekeeping advice, and Devon reading Rudyard Kipling's poem "For All We Have and Are."
- The "What did they do?" mugshot guessing game
- What physiognomy is, and why humans evolved to make snap judgments from faces
- The Lindsay Clancy trial and its hung jury
- Ancient physiognomy: Greek animal comparisons, the Hippocratic facies, and Polemon of Laodicea
- Chinese face reading (mianxiang) used in hiring and matchmaking, and Korean face-reading apps
- Giambattista della Porta, his persecution by the Church, and casting directors' use of "the look"
- Johann Caspar Lavater's Physiognomic Fragments and objections from his era that echo "pre-crime" worries today
- Phrenology and Franz Joseph Gall
- Early photography (Niépce, Robert Cornelius), Bertillon's mugshots, and Galton's composite portraits
- Darwin's The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals
- Lombroso's "born criminal," Kretschmer's Physique and Character, and Sheldon's somatotypes
- Medical uses of facial diagnosis: thyroid disease, Cushing's syndrome, acromegaly, Down syndrome screening, and AI tools for spotting genetic syndromes
- Studies on "gaydar," digit ratio, and hormones in the womb
- Unrelated look-alikes who share genetic variants and behavioral traits
- Studies predicting political orientation and personality from faces
- The 2016 Chinese study using machine learning to classify criminality from faces
- Looksmaxxing, plastic surgery, and whether it hides genetic fitness
- Why society rejects judging by appearance, and infant preference for attractive faces
- How people size others up in daily life, and the "fat friend" phenomenon
- Super Chats, Churro and Storm Cat, beekeeping questions, and a Kipling poem reading
Sources
Key Points of Wisdom
- [00:07:01] "You would think that we would have evolved, right, to be able to make snap decisions about other human beings just based on looking at them. And well, turns out, you know, we have." (Devon Stack, framing the topic.)
- [00:19:46] "You can look at like a bitter old man versus a nice old man… you're looking at someone who's been smiling for 80 years versus someone who's been… looking angry for 80 years." (Devon Stack, on pathognomy: repeated emotions leave marks on the face.)
- [00:22:46] "When you have a first impression, there are all these micro cues into somebody's behavior and personality that are not apparent to all of us." (Rebecca Hargraves, on why snap judgments are hard to break down.)
- [00:29:13] "They're working with the worldview that they were born with… and they still come up with some at least reasonably good observations." (Devon Stack, on judging early thinkers fairly.)
- [00:47:50] "These are instincts that we have naturally… [it's] incumbent upon us to try to figure out why we do these things and what the mechanism behind them is." (Rebecca Hargraves, on Lavater's aims.)
- [00:51:48] "That's how science works, right? You have an observation, you test the observation… and then we test that theory, and it didn't work out." (Devon Stack, on phrenology as a failed but useful hypothesis.)
- [01:03:05] Darwin insisted on a neutral expression when measuring faces, because "you're gonna be just measuring their emotion in that moment." (Devon Stack, on the difference between physiognomy and pathognomy.)
- [01:05:42] Facial expressions evolved partly to avoid injury: "if a dog can get the same thing done by just looking really mean that it could do by actually engaging in a fight… the survival rate goes up for everybody." (Devon Stack.)
- [01:16:03] "If we're going to do some things subconsciously, we should know why we're doing this. We should at least try to understand." (Rebecca Hargraves.)
- [01:21:25] "We have to lay that basis before science becomes more specific and robust." (Rebecca Hargraves, on early, crude science.)
- [01:32:50] A 10% error rate is "too high a margin for that to be an acceptable social strategy." (Rebecca Hargraves, objecting to acting on AI criminality predictions.)
- [01:42:54] "If you don't trust your gut instinct… people's gut instincts are generally right… if you can cultivate that in any given individual, it's a lifetime of making better decisions." (Rebecca Hargraves.)
- [01:44:44] "Don't judge a book by its cover… why would they put a cover on the book then?" (Devon Stack, on covers and posters existing to be judged.)
- [02:18:48] "It's not that it's your face making you do things. It's just the same thing that's making you do things made your face." (Devon Stack, answering the charge that physiognomy is fatalistic.)
Hyperchat Highlights
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[1:59:13] Regular Guy:
Best to you both.
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[1:59:13] Plum Logan:
Catch you on the replay. Here's some shekels. Thanks, James.
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[1:59:13] Osman versus Markman:
First time live. Thanks, Beck, for supporting Aussie nationalists when Dave didn't.
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[1:59:13] Samuel Spiel:
The elite believe this stuff. It just went underground after World War II in biology. If you want to change a population, you eliminate the borderlines. For example, by promoting the trans stuff, the borderline masculine males sterilize themselves.
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[2:01:35] John Calabra:
The soul and the spirit are different. Sin corrupts the soul, and only saved through Christ. This woman with the big nose that changes her face is probably going to hell.
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[2:01:35] Kevin Hunts:
[Offensive remark about the rhinoplasty video, omitted]
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[2:01:35] Marcus Langham:
Pipeline and Devon, here are some shekels for my favorite bad boys. Rest in peace, Churro. He was a good cat. He will be missed. Keep up the great work. Y'all have the best podcasts on the internet.
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[2:02:18] Kevin Hunts:
Lady, can you play a song? Adam Calhoun, "Hang 'Em."
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[2:03:18] The Supreme Rabbi Satan:
[Question to Blonde about visiting the New York Stock Exchange; offensive content omitted]
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[2:03:41] Astralis 725 Non Mexicans:
I meant to donate, but hit the message button too quick.
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[2:04:03] Red Neckerson:
I donated to today's and next week's show. Can you say the same?
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[2:04:03] Mike Hawk 420 Blazing:
Sorry to hear about Churro, Devon. He was a great cat.
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[2:05:11] Gorilla Hands:
The Clancy trial is taking place in my area, and yes, the women are that batshit crazy. Just look at our female governor or the mayor of Boston.
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[2:05:11] Gorilla Hands:
I have to admit that I needed this stream with you guys. I'm going through withdrawals from no Insomnia Stream over the weekend. o7 for Churro.
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[2:05:11] Pork Chop Express:
Devon, a reply on X says you once tried to locate the infamous Holocaust-denying 16-year-old Raymond who was on the Ricki Lake Show in 1996. I assume you didn't find him, but is the X reply true?
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[2:08:04] Tomahawk:
Devon, I have a Warré frameless hive, four boxes. Top three full of honey, bottom box full of brood. Is it too late in the year to harvest the top two boxes? I haven't had a chance till now.
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[2:08:04] Likes to Watch:
I'll catch the replay. Good night to both of you and to chat.
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[2:10:52] Evergreen Dream:
Missed the last couple streams, but sorry about Churro. I sent a chat a few months ago about losing my cat, and never expected they would meet in Kitty Valhalla so soon. I'll miss his interruptions. RIP.
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[2:10:52] The Shadow Band:
Thank you both for all the content, great shows.
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[2:10:52] Rage Pilled:
First time catching you live. I usually catch the restream with my husband while he's trucking. I've really enjoyed both Outlaws and the regular Black Pilled show. Thanks for doing what you do.
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[2:10:52] Book Track Grooves:
I have a rare book that studies physiognomy, if you're interested. Cheers, all.
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[2:10:52] Friendly Fash:
Cesare Lombroso was a Jew who wrote Antisemitism in the Light of Modern Science, using his methods to scientifically reject antisemitic ideologies and defend Jewish emancipation.
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[2:15:14] Iron and Solder:
I've been a longtime listener to your content and need to catch up on donations. Just here to drop a little dono money. I'll catch the replay. Sorry to hear about Churro.
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[2:15:14] Book Track Grooves:
Blonde, did you watch that video Aiden Paladin made about looksmaxxing in women on pills?
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[2:15:57] Catsman:
Replay gang, but wanted to support.
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[2:15:57] Donors Arc:
There was a term for mug shots, particularly of diddlers. They always have what is called the "pedo smile," a slight grin that doesn't exist in the faces of killers.
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[2:15:57] Tomahawk:
I'm in Kansas. The fall nectar flow is about to start for the next two months, and I do have a feeder. Warré is pronounced "war-ay." Look it up. It's supposed to be less stressful to the bees.
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[2:15:57] Love and Division:
Interesting discussion tonight. Who decided who gets which face? Seems very fatalistic.
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[2:20:07] Kevin Hunts:
I want Rebecca to see the vid. Love your free speech.
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[2:20:07] Toughy Banana:
I missed the stream watching Rhetorically Defective's stream. Maybe a collab would be fun. He and News Fist are rising stars of the slopulists.
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[2:20:07] Soul Nomad:
(From last week, on Rumble) Can you do a reading of "For All We Have and Are," either here or as a standalone video on your channel? [Remainder omitted, offensive content]
Hyperchat Contributors
- Regular Guy
- Plum Logan
- Osman versus Markman
- Samuel Spiel
- John Calabra
- Kevin Hunts
- Marcus Langham
- The Supreme Rabbi Satan
- Astralis 725 Non Mexicans
- Red Neckerson
- Mike Hawk 420 Blazing
- Gorilla Hands
- Pork Chop Express
- Tomahawk
- Likes to Watch
- Evergreen Dream
- The Shadow Band
- Rage Pilled
- Book Track Grooves
- Friendly Fash
- Iron and Solder
- Catsman
- Donors Arc
- Love and Division
- Toughy Banana
- Soul Nomad